Bonus track: Dr. Nivedita Agarwal, why do Germans need to rethink their innovation strategies?

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00:00:04
Intro: KontaktAufnahme. Der Podcast des Bildungszentrums Nürnberg.

00:00:23
Hannah Diemer: Hello and welcome back to our podcast. My name is Hannah Diemer and today with me is Nivedita Agarwal. And this interview is going to be in English because she's from India and working for FAU. Her bachelor's and master's in Bangalore in India in 2008. And she did electronic engineering and business administration. But she came to Germany for her doctor thesis and she did it in Bamberg. But since 2011, she's living in Nuremberg now, and she's working at the four at the Campus of Technology. Welcome. Why did you come to Nurnberg?

00:01:01
Dr. Nivedita Agarwal: Yeah. Good question. So my husband actually works in Siemens, which was um, the primary reason why we moved here. And I think that was also an interesting time for me because I wanted to come to academia. I was initially in the industry, and I was working as a business intelligence consultant there in India, and I was interested in research, and I always wanted to, uh, do this jump. So that was also an interesting time for me to come. And we as a family then moved to Germany back in 2011.

00:01:38
Hannah Diemer: So tell me, what is your research about?

00:01:41
Dr. Nivedita Agarwal: So, um, my research is actually focused on three main topics. Uh, it is about innovations, entrepreneurship, sustainability. So innovation and entrepreneurship. I would say that these two topics actually go hand in hand with each other. And these topics always excited me. So when I came here and decided to get into this, um, research and science field, it was also an interesting time because, uh, there were a lot of new innovations coming up at that time of 2010 to 2012, where innovations were actually coming from developing markets. So generally the the wave of innovation is actually from developed markets to developing markets. But at this time, we had new wave of innovations coming from the developing markets to develop markets. And these innovations were really, uh, focusing more on, uh, affordability aspect, focusing more on accessibility aspect, focusing more on being resourceful, being simple, being more basic, you know, and less complicated. And, uh, because emerging markets were also becoming, uh, were becoming that time I'm like huge markets because of the population, attractive markets for large companies like Siemens, GE and other multinationals. They got very interested to learn about what these innovations are. How come these local enterprises or local entrepreneurs are coming up with these innovations? And which also kind of intrigued me to get into this whole topic of, we call it as frugal innovation innovations, which are good enough value innovations and bring value to the customers. And so my research then started, I started my research on how these innovations are evolving. What are the specific features? What is the process value chain? What kind of methods tools are used to bring these innovations up? And then later on I also linked it with the of course, entrepreneurship side, because a lot of new entrepreneurs were coming in this new era. They wanted to also use this kind of innovation concept to come up with new innovations. And then there were also a new trend of the sustainability, where everyone was getting more and more conscious about their carbon footprint there. You know, the day to day living being more minimalistic in terms of resources that they're using. And then it was also interesting for me to see how newer innovations could come, which are resourceful, which are using less resources, which are more simple, which just focuses on the core values and are really more sustainable. So, I mean, in a nutshell, or to put a long story short, it was starting with innovation, then going to entrepreneurship field and now linking it with more sustainability aspects. This is what my research is about actually.

00:04:57
Hannah Diemer: Now could you give us an example about one of those frugal innovations?

00:05:03
Dr. Nivedita Agarwal: Yes. Um, so there are many examples actually. Maybe Tata Nano was one of the examples that was really famous because, um, uh, it was considered as the world's most, uh, cheapest car. Uh, it was around $2,000. And it was quite interesting to see how, uh, Tata, which is like a big multinational, uh, of Indian origin, they came up with this idea of, can we develop a car which actually targets the middle population, middle income population. And, uh, they had this cost target of building the car at $2,000. And then how did they, uh, go about, you know, developing this car? Although the car is not the most successful example of frugal innovation, but I think it is one of the most talked about example which people might have heard about. But other examples like Siemens has this multi-select. X ray machine. Then GE has this um like um ECG machine which is used for uh electrocardiogram machine. Uh, which is just like something which you actually can put it in your suitcase. And then doctors can take it to the, to the patients. Otherwise the normal ECG machine would look like, you know, uh, it will fill your half of your operation theater room. It's such a huge equipment. So these are like some examples, some successful, some not. But that's also quite normal, because when you're coming up with new innovations, they, they go, uh, about this normal phase of, you know, success and success and then later on scaling up. Yeah.

00:06:49
Hannah Diemer: Are all those examples already used?

00:06:53
Dr. Nivedita Agarwal: Yes. So these examples are already in use. Um, and uh, interestingly, it is not only in use in developing markets like India, for example, but they are also being used in developed markets, which we in a research term call as reverse innovation. Because actually these innovations were initially focusing on the bottom of the pyramid or the low income segment. But later on these innovations also got their, um, commercialization aspect into the developed world. So um, for example, this, uh, GE machine or Siemens machine in healthcare segment, these are being used in of course, hospitals in emerging markets, but they are also used as backup machines in markets like Germany. And they are also used as machines for cramped operation theatres or for accident sites because their you want something which is portable, which is easy to handle. And, uh, yeah. And that's how, uh, you have applications. You might have different applications of these innovations depending on the geographies, but definitely these innovations are being used.

00:08:07
Hannah Diemer: Now are there some examples for the daily life? Um.

00:08:13
Dr. Nivedita Agarwal: Yes. I mean, um, if I look at, uh, German market, for example, you have an option of going to ID or Lidl, which to an extent is more, um, frugal service because there's more. There is, uh, not a huge variety of products that you can find, but there are limited variety of products. Um, and then there is more self-service, kind of, um, you know, uh, service innovation. And it's basically the, the whole concept is that they focus on the products which are mostly used or which are used for from larger populations. So those are their target products. Um, then Flixbus, I mean, uh, you might have heard about this Flixbus. So that's also, I think, kind of a frugal innovation because that's just focusing on the main aspect of, you know, you you have to go from one place to the other at, uh, minimal cost. Uh, and then you, you have the core requirements that you want, you know, like Wi-Fi or internet, and then you have, uh, charging codes and then you have maybe toilets. So that's like the core requirement that you have, uh, from going from one place to the other. And you have that in a very cost effective way. So these are just like probably daily life examples from your context. Yeah.

00:09:53
Hannah Diemer: So why do you think all those frugal innovations are so important? Why do we need those frugal innovations in the future?

00:10:01
Dr. Nivedita Agarwal: Yes. Like I said, the world is moving towards a different, um, era where, um, new technologies are coming, where, uh, we have different challenges in terms of climate challenges, in terms of depleting natural resources. So we need to be more conscious of what kind of, uh, innovations as a company we are producing and also from the customer perspective. We have to be more conscious of what we are buying, if that is really needed or if it has an impact to the environment. And the whole concept of frugal innovation is that you you try to think in those constraints or limitations that, okay, I need to have innovations which are better for the environment, so I need to have less number of resources that are being used for the products or I need to have, um, I mean, one of the sustainability goal is that, uh, having equal access, you know, you have, uh, different disparities in terms of gender, in terms of income. So can you create innovations that are equally accessible to a lot of people? And technology, I think, is, uh, playing a big role here to make these frugal innovation more and more accessible to a large number of population. So I think, uh, in future we'll see more and more of these innovations coming up. And it need not be only focusing on lowering the cost, but it might be focusing more on being more resourceful, being more green, being more, um, inclusive in terms of if you're developing a product, it is not only for one market, but is actually for the whole, um, uh, market, like the emerging markets, developing markets or whatever. So I think that's where frugal innovation as a concept will play a big role. Yeah.

00:12:09
Hannah Diemer: That sounds so interesting. Do you think you have some kind of advantage because you were growing up in India and now studying this in Germany, so you experience both the undeveloped market and developed market?

00:12:25
Dr. Nivedita Agarwal: Yes. So I think that's something that I also realized after coming here that this is kind of a USB that I bring in, that I've been born and brought up in an environment where, uh, this constraint based thinking or thinking in like, limitations or, you know, thinking out of the box, okay, if I have this constraint, how can I use some other alternative to, you know, overcome that? Which, which for us, it's somehow built in because we were in some certain environment. And now when you come to Germany, it's completely different. So when I interact with students, they never think about resource as their constraints. They always think, okay, I will get all of these. And then I have to, you know, come up with a new innovation and then you actually give them these constraints. No, you don't have these resources. You only have this limited number of resources. And then you have to be more creative to come up with new, new ideas. And I think that's where probably I bring in the, the, the value. Because somehow this is inbuilt in our mindset that you have to think about in constraints and what could be the different, uh, directions that you can go in to, you know, to build up on your creativity, to come up with new ideas and, um, yeah. So of course, I mean, that's something that I, I'm happy to bring in in the, in the German context.

00:13:57
Hannah Diemer: I saw your latest published article was about social entrepreneurship and how women can be agents of change. Can you tell me a little bit about that?

00:14:08
Dr. Nivedita Agarwal: Yeah. So what we did in this research was we tried to see how women entrepreneurs are actually progressing in their journey towards achieving certain goals. The whole assumption was women because of their feminist characteristics or maybe feminine qualities, they are more empathetic. So they might, uh, have a better understanding of social causes. So they they would be better social enterprise entrepreneurs. So that was the whole assumption why we started this project. And then we tried to interview a lot of women entrepreneurs who are working in the social innovation field to understand how they actually came up with the ideas, new ideas and what actually helped them in their journey. Was it like personal experience, personal network, or what kind of challenges that they faced during that journey, and how that challenges or opportunities that they face are similar or different to what in general men will face when they are going towards social entrepreneurs. And more or less, we found kind of a mixture in our results because of course women are more empathetic, so they were more prone to go in this social direction. But um, there, there were differences in the terms that how they found the funding for their, um, entrepreneurial journey and for women, it was more based on their personal network. So they were very much focused on their own network, whereas men were more open and they were more open for, uh, looking for other opportunities for funding. And then also, I mean, um, men were more experimental in their, um, in their process or in, you know, um, in trying out new things or more, uh, taking more risks in terms of, um, um, looking for new ideas for their, for their enterprise, whereas women had a different perspective that they always tried to balance the risk with, uh, with kind of, uh, certainty. So they had some objective in mind. They were flexible, but they were trying to balance this risk with what they had in mind. So they were kind of interesting results that we found. And this is an ongoing project, and we are still continuing this, uh, and now we are trying to understand, okay, does this only exist in emerging markets, like people or women who are trying to, um, get into this entrepreneurial mode in emerging markets, or does it also imply for developed markets? So are there differences there? So it's an interesting research that we are doing and we find interesting results as well. Yeah.

00:17:17
Hannah Diemer: So there is this whole new new topic about the gender data gap, which focuses on how all the research in the past was kind of focused on men, and now they see that they have to include women or elderly people or disabled people to get more general results, because otherwise women are not really that thought of. Do you think that those frugal innovations and female entrepreneurship can do something against that?

00:17:48
Dr. Nivedita Agarwal: Yes, definitely. So that was also one of our reasons to start, is that a lot of research, or majority of the research that we have Are, is focused on, um, men, uh, so to say, or men entrepreneurs in that field. And also, uh, the research is focused more on developed world. So because of many reasons why women and that who in emerging markets were not being researched so much. And there are many reasons for that. Because of the data, because of the openness, because of, you know, the the media communication. There were many, uh, there are many reasons for it. And, um, frugal innovation would, I think, fit in here because, um, especially when you're talking about developing markets, frugal innovation is also about being more flexible, being more inclusive. So definitely women who are trying to get into this entrepreneurial journey, they, um, adopt these frugal approaches of being more inclusive, being more flexible, and being more resourceful. To to come up with the new ideas. So definitely there is a linkage there. Yeah.

00:19:10
Hannah Diemer: So you as a woman in science, did you face any prejudice? Um, because you are a woman.

00:19:20
Dr. Nivedita Agarwal: Um, well, luckily not so far, because I think, um, of course there has been a gender bias or gender disproportion in research or in science. Uh, but if I look at numbers in Europe, it could be more or less somewhere around 30 to 40%. Now, women are there in science, which is not that bad. And um, over time, I see there is a lot of or there are a lot of efforts going on to really push women to come on these, uh, uh, research sites or maybe also in the industry. So there is a lot of push. And it's always nice to be in this time where you as a woman and you are actually not faced with a lot of challenges, but you are really encouraged to be in this field and to to actually do more in science. So that's that's good and fortunate for me.

00:20:25
Hannah Diemer: How would you encourage young women to start a career? Um.

00:20:31
Dr. Nivedita Agarwal: I think for I mean, if I think of how I got into the science field, uh, was that when I started my masters, basically, I started in, um, in Indian Institute of Science in Bangalore, which was or which is still a leading institute for research and, um, the whole environment of research, uh, in the institute where you have like 1 to 1 relation with the professors or every time engrossed in their own research activities in their consulting, and you get to you get into that perspective of thinking in a different way, uh, of questioning everything. And you need that kind of mindset, and you need that kind of environment to get into that mindset.

00:21:19
Hannah Diemer: Yeah, I think it's just so important that we need to encourage all those young women to, like, start a career in science or start a career in social entrepreneurship because, um, I always have the feeling that women are told that they're just not that good enough. And I think it's just so important to do all this work.

00:21:37
Dr. Nivedita Agarwal: I mean, for us as, uh, also the teachers at the university. So we, we try to become more like a role model for them that, you know, I because when I teach to a lot of women in our, um, university, I, I take a lot of examples of social entrepreneurs. I take examples of myself, you know, changing from one culture to the other culture. Of course, it has a lot of ups and downs, but it's always up to you how you look at the new challenges and how you adapt to those challenges. So you have to be flexible. You have to be open. You have to be more confident of what you are, irrespective of what past you have, what cultural background you're coming from. But you have to be really open and open for challenges and also open for opportunities. And I mean, at the university, that's what we do. We do a lot of events, especially for women, where we get a lot of, um, women from the entrepreneurial field, from academia, from industry, and then they just share the journey of, you know, what challenges they faced or how did they got motivated to get into those fields. And this I think it's just like getting that, uh, the whole environment around you. And that's what gets you motivated and gets you working in the research or science area.

00:23:03
Hannah Diemer: Now you also have a kit. Is it easy to combine family and science and network?

00:23:10
Dr. Nivedita Agarwal: Um, yes. I think that's like one of the aspects that we considered when we decided, okay, we we settled down here because, um, there is a very nice work life balance that I can manage my kids. So I have two daughters, one eight year and the other one one and a half year old. Uh, the smaller one, of course, needs more of my time, which was a bit challenging. But now it's getting better because she's growing. But, um, so generally, like, I have this liberty of balancing my personal life with my, uh, professional life. So in research, especially, or in science, you have this option of, uh, working at your own time, you know. So I generally work in the morning when the kids are at school or at daycare. Then after 4 p.m., I basically shut down my computer and just play with them, have some family time, and then once they are back in bed at 8 or 9 and then I'm back at my laptop or at my desk. So basically so then I myself can balance my professional and personal, you know, activities, which is quite nice and which I think is very important for working mothers to have this kind of balance. And in that sense, I think Nürnberg area is pretty, is really good. Yeah.

00:24:39
Hannah Diemer: How is living in New York without speaking German.

00:24:44
Dr. Nivedita Agarwal: So I can manage? I mean, I'm staying actually in London and I've shifted here in 2011, so over nine years I think we've seen a tremendous change in the terms of how the city has become more and more international, more and more colorful. Um, and, um, this is all thanks, I think, to the university, the industry, especially Siemens, and as we always see your people coming in, and I think in general, the, the at least the people I've met or in general the people I've met and the the culture here is quite open to other culture. They are always interested in knowing about what the other culture brings in. In my neighborhood, we have families from Turkey, we have families from China, we have families from Germany. And it's also I mean, it's so interesting to see people mingling from different cultures, learning each other's language. And, um, yeah, I mean, it's we are liking it here and it's not that difficult. So of course it just makes more easier to integrate when you know the language which we are learning and, um, I can manage a little bit of German, but it is more for me than English, which is mixture of English and Deutsch. You know, in a sense, yeah. But, uh, in general, I think, uh, we, we feel quite comfortable and we feel quite happy living here.

00:26:16
Hannah Diemer: Is there anything what the city of Limerick needs to change in order to address more international people? Or do you think in general, everything is quite all right?

00:26:28
Dr. Nivedita Agarwal: Yeah, I think there is always scope to do more. So I think, um, bureaucracy is something that's very typical of, uh, the German way of working. So that's something that could be more flexible. And, um, I think, uh, this corona time is actually helping to make things more flexible and make things more open and make things more, you know, getting to more newer ways of doing things. Because one thing that I also experienced in Germany, especially when I visit to other European countries, I mean, if you look at the the amount or the percentage of how many people use actually cash to to do the normal day to day life, um, exchanges, I mean, generally now if you go to other world it's still or it's the cards that you have to carry. You have direct like payments through mobile, but it's still like kind of old fashioned right now here, which if you want to attract really young population, international population, so that there needs to be a different or change in mindset that you have to also progress on certain things, then bureaucracy getting into like newer technologies or newer way of doing things, I don't know. Work life balance. I think it's very nice. And, uh, but maybe with Corona, there would be more focus on, um, working from home. So which would be also interesting for people coming especially from international background, because they might not have the family support, because I can say from my side, from my children, if they are sick, then I have no one to actually, you know, to have the support from because there's no extended family here. So when you have more options to work from home, it is just easier for people coming from the international background. So they're like bits and pieces here and there. But overall, I think Nurnberg is doing pretty well in welcoming people from international background.

00:28:42
Hannah Diemer: At the end of our interview. We are always asking, um, if there's anything that you always like to learn and just haven't yet.

00:28:56
Dr. Nivedita Agarwal: To learn. Mhm. Yeah. For me language is a big, big thing that I have to learn and I've done to be one. But I still try to manage my research, my time with kids, with learning this language because I think that's quite important if you want to really integrate in the culture and get to know more about the cultures, you have to learn the language. So for me, I really have to learn the language, uh, to be more fluent. Yeah.

00:29:30
Hannah Diemer: At the end, we always ask about the, um, moments of happiness. Um, what has been a moment of happiness for you lately?

00:29:45
Dr. Nivedita Agarwal: I got awarded with one of the award, which is a fellow award, um, which I just got on 25th of June, and which is basically because of your research. So you have a certain criteria if you meet that. And your research is pretty interesting for Nürnberg as an area, then, uh, there is a scholar fellowship that you get for your to continue with your research to support with that. And that was that's the most happiest moment for me. Yeah.

00:30:22
Hannah Diemer: Congratulations. That sounds so great. Thank you. Thank you so much for your time and talking to me and answering all our questions, and I hope to see you soon. Yes, definitely.

Dieses Projekt/Diese Maßnahme/Initiative leistet einen wichtigen Beitrag, Nürnberg schrittweise inklusiver zu gestalten. Es/Sie ist Teil des Nürnberger Aktionsplans zur Umsetzung der UN-Behindertenrechtskonvention (UN-BRK). Den Ersten Aktionsplan hat der Nürnberger Stadtrat im Dezember 2021 einstimmig beschlossen. Um die gleichberechtigte Teilhabe von Menschen mit und ohne Behinderung in Nürnberg zu verwirklichen, wurden und werden umfangreiche Maßnahmen entwickelt und umgesetzt. Weitere Informationen finden Sie unter www.inklusion.nuernberg.de.

This project/measure/initiative makes an important contribution to gradually making Nuremberg more inclusive. It is part of the Nuremberg Action Plan for the implementation of the UN Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities (UN CRPD). The first Action Plan was unanimously adopted by the Nuremberg City Council in December 2021. In order to achieve equal participation of people with and without disabilities in Nuremberg, extensive measures have been and continue to be developed and implemented. For more information, please visit www.inklusion.nuernberg.de.